Stealing Plug-ins – Robin Hood or Jack Sparrow?

Monday I emailed my newsletter subscribers to check out a post I wrote a few months ago called What Are Your Favorite Plug-ins?

There are a lot of great comments over there, and there are a lot of cool, free plug-ins to check out.

One comment, however, caught my attention.

Ryan wrote:

I understand that to some, this is a moral issue, but plugins are extremely easy to download off of torrent sites…for free!
I’m just saying…why line the pockets of these huge corporations by paying their ridiculous prices. They are just trying to hold the home engineer back so that major labels can keep making their money. I don’t do it of course….I’m just sayin. Haha

I responded with:

Coming from a music technology retail background, I’m gonna come down on the side of these “huge corporations.” They’re not that big, really. And they wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for customers who both valued their products and PAID for them.

Maybe they’re a bit expensive, but no one is making you use/buy them.

Also, I really doubt the big companies only want to sell to major labels. Would you rather sell to 100 major studios or 100,000 home studios? Exactly.

You’re right, though, it’s fairly easy to steal plug-ins.

We’ve all undoubtedly had the debate about pirating music, and that’s not really the focus of this article. In particular, I want to know YOUR opinion about pirating software.

Do we have a Robin Hood situation? Rob from the rich and give to the poor?

Or is this more of a Jack Sparrow situation? “…rape, pilage, plunder, and otherwise pilfer my weasly black guts out.”

I appreciate my plug-ins and software. I appreciate the fact that they work, and I’m happy to pay money for them. I also think Johnny Depp is one cool dude.

But what do YOU think? What do you do?

I’ll be posting a new video tour of my studio tomorrow, but not until I’ve got 20 comments on this post. Let’s hear it folks!

[Photo by Arcane Canticle]

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by Joe Gilder in Thoughts • 164 Comments - Leave a comment!

-Grandz-

All I have to say is stealing is wrong. but people will still do what they have to do in order to make the music right. so bottom line if u steal nd make money off of the products. buy the products.simple as that.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

“people will still do what they have to do in order to make the music right.”

I think the bigger issue is that people BELIEVE that they have to have these plug-ins to make good music. For example, if you haven’t listened to my podcast interview with Ben Gortmaker, you should. He recorded and mixed his ENTIRE ALBUM in GarageBand. He used all stock plug-ins, and it sounds amazing.

Ben is proof that you don’t have to buy (or steal) fancy plug-ins to make great-sounding music. (Although, I LOVE my “fancy” plug-ins. )

Ariel

“Try before buy”. Some plugins I did acutally buy after downloading it: RealStrat, RealGuitar, ezDrummer (with DFH), Steven Slate Drums, Cakewalk Studio Instruments (…and a lot more I can’t recall right now). Here in Hungary downloading movies, music, or plugins are completaly legal. Spreading, and selling priated stuff is illegal. Legislation presumes, if you like it you will buy it, and many of us do.
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org philip

Don’t Use Crack.

Crack is bad mmkay?
rick

I will say, though, it’s great that more and more manufacturers are offering usable trial demos (or free stuff). Unlike a guitar or keyboard, it’s pretty hard to “try before you buy” with plugs. Unless you have a really cool friend at the music retail store and even then, you would feel bad for making them go through all the hoops of setting that up for you if you ultimately don’t like it and choose not to buy. I could walk into a keyboard dept and have 20-30 keyboards to demo without bugging the salesperson (or being bugged by them). It’s harder to do that with plug-ins.

And I’m sorry, but the mentality that “how will I learn to compete with the pros when I can’t afford the same $$$$$$$$$$$$ tools they have” is complete and utter bunk. Rihanna’s “Umbrella” drum loop is a stock loop from GARAGEBAND (free on every Mac). Tons of hip-hop/R&B guys are using Fruity Loops.

My point… these guys become pros from learning the art of songcrafting. The tools enhance that art, yes. but it’s like getting a nicer paintbrush for your watercolors, versus learning how the paint on the brush you snaked from your daughter. The crap brush is what you used to learn how to paint. And once you learn the limitations of your kid’s brush, you will know what you need out of the next brush to make things better. Can’t afford a super nice acrylic brush? OK… get the next step down. You paid for it, it’s still better than what you have, and your art will get better as a result. Too many people think they are limited by their tools (I used to be in that boat), when in reality they don’t put in the time and experience to actually learn the craft. You can give me the finest DeWalt tools, but it won’t mean I can build anything nice (without knowledge).

Will a pro recording sound better using a really nice mic pre versus my stock M-Audio interface? Yeah. ASSUMING the guy using the tool knows the science behind what he is doing. In the meantime, learn how to make great recordings on your “humble” rig, learn its limitations, then build from there.

And if you truly can’t afford anything, there really are still free things online. Or make some friends with nice gear .

In the end, I won’t lose any sleep over piracy, since it doesn’t affect my job. But I know the strains of providing for my stay-at-home wife and 3 young children and by stealing anything (even digitally), you not only screw the “huge corporations” but eventually you screw the guy trust trying to eek out a living but now has no job because he’s been laid off. So as you justify stealing the warez, trying to actually become some of the very people you are now stealing from, just think about it…

[steps off soapbox]
r0cb0y

for those of you who dont know chi cheng he’s the bassist of deftones..
r0cb0y

here in the Philippines.. piracy killed the film industry.. the music industry seems like its also heading in the same direction.. nowadays new filipino films get released only when its the metro manila film fest period.. usually held during christmas period.. no international films will be shown in theaters during the festival period to give way to the filipino movies that are nominated in the festival.. that runs for about two weeks.. after that period.. there maybe a couple films that could be released usually before or after valentines day.. after that no filipino film will be produced.. we would have to wait until the festival before we could see a locally produced film again.. i hate to say this but.. most filipinoes tend to buy pirated music and movies because they think they are making a practical decision.. they don’t care if they are killing the industry because all they can think of is to watch a movie or listen to music the cheapest way they can.. but i cant really blame them.. in a country where minimum wage is less than 10$ not including taxes and insurance payments.. do you have a choice?.. where else could you find a band that has a number 1 song for over a year and still not make gold status which i think is only ten to twenty thousand copies.. how could a band have a song stay at the number 1 spot and not sell records.. to add insult to injury.. they got droped from their label bacause they weren’t selling records.. if you are running a major label would you drop a band that had a number one song for over a year.. who would do that? that only happens here in the Philippines.. pls guys.. dont let it happen to your country.. buy legit if you could afford it.. if you cant and you really want to use that software then at least donate to their site or maybe buy a legit copy after you made money off of that software you stole.. if every label, production company and development company goes bankrupt.. what would happen to us..? imagine a world with no music no movie.. what would you do if you have no pro tools le.. could you afford 2 inch tapes which are very expensive.. could you guys afford to buy analogue devices which costs way way more than vst’s.. just my thought.. its to you to decide though..

i’ll be honest though.. some of the songs on my ipod are illegal downloads.. and some of the software i’m using are illegal too.. but i never bought anything from pirates.. and i buy the legit stuff whenever i manage to save enough money.. and i’m planning to buy a legit copy everything that i have downloaded when the money comes in.. i’m not saying that i’m doing the right thing.. but at least i pay for them whenever i get the chance and the money..

and joe.. sorry if this is off topic.. just want to spread the word.. just edit this out if you think it’s not appropriate

pls visit http://oneloveforchi.com/
chi cheng has been in a “minimally conscious” state since his accident in november 2008.. you can donate buy merchandise or help promote this site. just visit the site for more info..
bobby

if u can’t create great sounding music (any genre) without expensive plugins, then u should re define yourself, artist or noise maker. Indeed u need tools to make art. Hence the free plugins and DAW.
bobby

Oh my gosh, it’s a small industry we are all in, if we(recording enthusiast) don’t pay for plug ins(or any recording related software) then who would?
Secondly, if u can’t pay, don’t steal it. Period. It doesn’t matter if you’re just hobbyist, or just some curious people or professional recording engineer, if u gotta pay for plug ins, pay! It doesn’t matter if you’re making money or not.
Joe R.

I was given a pirated version of “Waves” and I used it for a few monthes. I never felt very good about it. I decided to take the high road and deleted all pirated software from my P/C.

I only use plug-ins that came bundled with my DAW. I am sure there are better Plug-ins out there, but I am happy with the results.
Sam K

I have priated a lot of plugins and DAWs over the last 14 years or so while struggling to learn the basics of music production (synth/electro/industrial) completely by trial and error in a vacuum.

It has always been my dream to be a music artist but the styles I enjoy (heavy/electro/industrial) are heavily “produced” and imitating them was a complete mystery to me for a long time. I grew up in a rural area and have had zero education or connections that might have supplied me with any inklings on how to get the sounds I so badly wanted to make.

At no time in my life have I ever been “comfortable” financially or enjoyed the concept of “disposable income”. I got a synth keyboard when I was 16 (1991) because my grandparents gave me ($2000) they had saved for me since I was born. My heroes were Faith No More and Ministry. That keyboard (Roland JV-80) ultimately turned out to be the wrong sort of synth for the music I wanted to produce. I didn’t know that at the time, I was completely naive of the whole synth world, all I knew was that I was told this was a “good synth”. It hurts me to think how uneducated I was at the time of that crucial purchase, that was a friggen shitload of money back then.

Through my later teenage years I got really disillusioned with that synth and had to accept that it was never going to make the sounds I wanted.

When soft synths started to become available suddenly, through piracy, I was able to expand my sonic pallete. I could try out new synths without the massive cash outlay on something that was largely unkown that stung me so badly last time. Back in those days, considering I was still learning the basics of synthesis, it took me probably a year of fiddling to figure out if a synth really had what I wanted or not. once again I learnt the whole analogue synthesis thing entirely by trial and error.

I can still remember the dozens of hours of knob twiddling in total and ultimate frustration in trying to get the sounds I wanted. I was totally groping in the dark. PDF manuals are more common knowadays but back then pirated stuff almost never came with a manual, and even if it did most synth manuals assume you already have a thorough grounding.

I tried a whole bunch of synths and DAWs as well. DAWs were totally arcane to me, they were huge snarling beasts of a program. I went through 4 versions of cubase, barely scratching the surface of understanding what it could do or how to do it or what I needed to be learning to get the sounds I wanted. For many years it was nothing more than hundreds of hours of tinkering with horrible results that did not even remotely resembled what I wanted.

In all this time I did not produce a single finished track that I liked. Thinking about it now, I’m amazed I kept going.

With all that in mind, there is simply no way in hell I was ever going to pay the thousands and thousands of dollars for DAWs and plugins that I was bashing my head against when I had zero expectation of actually ever getting anything good out of it. I knew full well that my ignorance was the main contributing factor to the value I was getting, but to me that really makes no difference. I simply COULD NOT justify such huge sums of money (which I didn’t have anyway) when I had no expectation of being able to achieve the end result I was hoping for.

All this time I told myself that if I ever did achieve what I wanted, I would buy the software I used to do it.

After a lot of messing around I eventually kind of gave up and spent 5 years (late 20s early 30s) not playing music at all and trying to forget the dream, but it simply would not go away.

At the end of 2008 I decided to have another go at it. This time however, much to my delight, I found that there is now a thriving Internet community around music production that shares a LOT of information about production. Also, nearly every plugin and DAW I have downloaded comes with a PDF manual! I spent some time dabbling with Sonar 7, but eventually I found Ableton Live 7.

Between the greatly improved synth plugins, the “artist centric” workflow of Live and having manuals for everything, I was suddenly starting to make serious forward strides in creating my sound. I spent a year writing a lot of music (still no finished tracks, I need to work on my lyric writing :\ ) and I’ve done some work I am seriously proud of. I have totally fallen in love with Ableton Live, it “gets the hell out of my way” and allows me to create without confusing me with a million options i don’t understand, which none of the other DAWs ever did.

The end result? At the beginning of 2010, I bought Ableton Live 8. I bought the “non-suite” edition through a Live Lite upgrade (my wife bought me a Launchpad for Xmas) while they were doing their 10th anniversary discount so I got it at less than half price. Which made it affordable.

A few months later I also bought Camel Audio’s Alchemy which is hands down the most awesome synth I have ever played. Their demo is fully functional and goes for 21 NON-CONSECUTIVE days which means each time you launch it, and it’s a new calendar day, the trial counter goes down by one. That took me about 3 months to get through which was plenty of time to fall in love with it, and then the purchase price is only $249!

It’s ironic that after all these years and so many pirated synths, I never pirated the one I finally bought. I put this down to their generous trial period and VERY high value for money price point.

So to sum up, the point of my story is this. Over the course of this whole story, the whole issue of the ethics of piracy was an utterly miniscule concern in comparison to my attempt to achieve my creative dream.

For me personally, the end 1000% justified the means and you will never convince me otherwise. After thousands of hours of hard and demoralising work groping in the dark I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel, and if anyone tried to stand in my way now I would hack them down and leave them in my wake without a second thought.

If I had never pirated I would have given up on music in my early twenties when I gave up on the Roland keyboard. That would be it, the end. Instead, because of pirated software I am now very close to realising my dream and Ableton and Camel Audio have benefitted from that.

As a final parting note, when I finally get my tracks together for my debut release, I will personally be uploading the torrent.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

I definitely see your point, but the question I would like to raise is this: Was it REALLY the software that was limiting you?

I can’t help but think of all the great guitarists in the world. Chances are they didn’t all grow up in rich families and bought $2,000 guitars when they were 13. I bet that most of them learned their craft on cheap guitars and amps.

If you interviewed Jack White, The Edge, Jimmy Page, etc. I bet none of them tell you they became such amazing guitarists because of the really nice guitars and amps they bought along the way. They most likely became amazing guitarists WHILE using sub-par equipment, then bought nicer gear down the road.

We would all laugh at an up-and-coming guitarist who said that he simply CANNOT get good tone or become a good guitarist without stealing a Fender Super Reverb from his local store.

I know that digital goods are technically different, but I think the logic of “I wouldn’t have stayed involved in music without this pirated software” is fairly thin.

Reporter: Mr. The Edge, what do you contribute to your great success as a guitarist?

The Edge: All those amps I stole back in high school. Man, if I hadn’t stolen those amps, U2 would have never existed. I’d be running a pub in Dublin somewhere.

I
have a sneaky suspicion you could hand him a stick and some rubber bands and he’d make it sound amazing. Perhaps we rely too much on the paintbrush and not enough on the artist?

David

You guys both make good points. I agree w/both of you, though as i said in an earlier post, i started learning how to do home recordings directly because i was given a pirated copy of a DAW many years ago. I was playing in a band at the time and wanted to learn how to record in our practice space, but none of us had any money. Half the band was going away to college in a few months, so the possibility of gigging to earn money wasn’t there. We wanted to have an audio record of our time together as a band, as well as something to send to local indie labels, but were frustrated that we couldn’t.

Shortly thereafter, a friend gave me a pirated copy of CEP, and we were able to record 2 albums thanks to that illegal “gift.”

I’m not justifying the pirating at all, just pointing out that there was no way we could have made a decent recording at the time w/o it, and i would have had to wait several years before i had the resources to purchase a DAW and plug-ins in order to start learning how all this awesome stuff works.
Sam K

I fully admitted in my post that my number one problem was ignorance. If I could go back to that 16 year old and give him what I know now, things would be VERY different.

If you are saying I should have known better, my question is “how”? I did what I could with the knowledge I had, which was very little.

Also, synths are very different to guitars. All guitars have 6 strings, most guitars have pretty much the same number of frets spread the same distance apart. What you learn on one guitar translates very well to other guitars. Also there is a long history of well known guitar sounds and styles. Synths could not be more different from that scenario, or from each other for that matter.

If you bought a cheap synth 20 years ago you were buying a toy piece of crap which had no ability for sound design programming at all and probably didn’t even have MIDI. You cannot buy a casio and learn the basics of programming a Nord Lead. The whole guitar thing is just a poor analogy.

Also, I never said I needed the best stuff, in saying I had used $5,000 worth of gear, it’s because I went through a LOT of plugins trying to learn what was possible. Also, I used Cubase because a friend had it which was a huge leg up in learning. It was all about getting an education the hard way.

A lot of people seem to forget that 15 years ago there was A LOT LESS free/cheap stuff available than there is now. I tried a free DAW about 10 years ago, they used to give it away on the cover of Computer Musician magazine. It was horribly awful, none of you would consider it a serious tool today, but that’s what there was back then at the free price point. Stuff like ReNoise and Reaper are increadible now in comparison.

But I’ll make my final point again, the entire moral argument of piracy is completely dwarfed when placed next to the “succeed at all costs” attitude that is pretty much required of artists these days if they want to get stand out.

I’m not saying it’s right, I’m not saying it’s justified, I’m just saying that expecting otherwise is ignoring the reality that our world is far from perfect.

Ewald

In this discussion I think it is funny, that people, who have no problems to use plugins from torrent sites, have a problem with other people who change the (with stolen plugins) produced music over torrent sites.

The next point is, that cracked plugins make often problems. At the latest when you update your OS or your DAW. It is not fine when you open a session from last year and the session sounds different because some of your plugs don´t function.

Also I think it is a advantage to have a clear amount of plugins. What do you do with 30 different eq´s? Is the amount of different eqs or compressors helpful for a better sound of your songs? I don´t think so.
rick

WOW… that was a long read.

OK… I read many of the posts and scanned several others, so I don’t know if this was covered or not (I didn’t see it).

What about NFR (“Not For Resale”) software? I actually won a pretty popular piece of software from Guitar Center a couple of years ago. They kept saying “a full working” version. So, it *is* a full working version, but technically you shouldn’t use NFR software on anything you are trying to sell, right? (I haven’t, btw).

But I didn’t steal it, and it’s a completely legit BOXED set from the manufacturer.

chrisw92

no, that’s different…

that’s like buying those multi-pack crisps and creating art out of the empty packets and selling it off (a daft example, I know… it doesn’t even point out what im trying to say).
Jason Kusnier

That kind of goes along with student versions. Most of them are intended and priced for learning only. I don’t know if any of the student discounts for plugins actually change the licensing. But I know that if you have say a student version of MS Office, you’re not supposed to use it for business purposes.
rick

@Jason… yeah, that’s what I was thinking about (the MS Office EDU version example). I also have a couple of NFR sets given to me from a former retail employee that would never use them himself (so he wasn’t giving me a copy… I received the actual serial #s and registered the goods in my name). Now, if I come to find that I really like these tools and I want to start a “business” and make money off my music (that makes regular use of these tools), I would buy them.

The other thing is you need to consider if you are really wanting to make a living off this, you pay for the tools to be successful. It’s like buying suits and ties for work. Your job doesn’t reimburse you for your clothes. You buy them as an investment towards your career, with the hopes that looking nice in your line of work will equate to more business. And thankfully for my ugly face that hates wearing monkey suits, I work in a business casual, back office environment xD

http://www.youtube.com/djkevwest Kev

I pay for my stuff. I cannot condone stealing someone else’s software if I then attempt to sell my music or services using these plugs. Besides that there is so much cool freeware out there i dont know why people only look at the commercial stuff and steal that.
Heath

Whats a plugin?
http://www.mydigitalpathos.com Julian

Wow I KNEW this was gonna be an epic thread when I posted waaaaay back there.
Really great discussion, strong views. Awesome topic Joe.
Re-stating my original point, though, piracy will never go away…best corporations can ever do is have copy-protection allowing for a profit before its cracked. Companies like Waves understand this (5.x apparently is cracked when you see $20 eBay listings selling it “no iLok required”) so they put everything into copy protection to stave off piracy at least a year or more if they can.
The corporations are very smart, they know what they’re up against:
Matt

I think a good follow up question to ask is why do people pirate software. You’re always going to get those people that just want something for free. In the past I have downloaded pirated software because ::wait for it:: I purchased a legitimate copy and could not get its over restrictive DRM to play well with my machine. Just this weekend I had to jump through hoops to get my T-Racks S3 plugin I purchased from the no brainer deal sale to work.

My point is, I hate DRM. When things do not work correctly I always opt for the easiest solution. I hate this iLok I have to have plugged in my computer to boot up Pro Tools. DRM like this obviously does not work with all the cracked software out there. I have no problem paying for software, but when DRM ruins my experience I always question why I even bothered taking the high road.
http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

Agreed. Or try Audacity or Ardour. Both are great DAW’s and are completely free. If you think you need the best plug-ins and VST’s when you’re first getting started, then you’re way off.
Jason Kusnier

For the people who are saying that they stole to get started. There are plenty of beginner apps out there for cheap that will get the job done. Garageband for example. Comes with every new mac or can be bought for $80. I know several people who have recorded full albums on it…

So I guess my point is.. If you’re looking to get your feet wet, start with the apps that are designed and priced for it.

Cliff

Great discussion, I started with cubase SE, then I stepped up to an mBox mini, to an mBox Pro, to an 003. I decided to redo some of the stuff I had originally recorded in cubase SE. I found my dongle, but couldn’t find the install disc. I contacted Steinberg, but got no help from them………………..so I d/l’d a crack of cubase, opened up my old sessions, got the bpm info and everything else I needed. And then I felt so bad about the crack that I deleted it. I remember taking my son back into a store when he was 4 year old, and had taken a piece of penny candy. I marched him back in and had him tell what he had done, and pay for it. So how could I have a cracked app. Then to make matters worse, I started feeling that the crack had done something to my system that I didn’t know about, so I ended up wiping my HD and doing a clean install just so I could feel good about myself again. There are a lot of good deals out there, you just have to look for them. Not too long ago I got the Nomad British Bundle from AudioMidi for $20. So stealing is stealing no matter what kind of beginner/starving musician wrapper you try to put on it. Like Justin noted there are tremendous apps for beginners and not so beginning engineer/musicians out there. My manager at work is a musician also. He has about $35,000 invested in a Pro Tools HD system. He produces acts in his spare time that he is trying to get deals for. On one particular track he couldn’t get it sounding like he wanted, so he hired an outside engineer. The guy showed up with a Macbook Pro, asked for the audio files and proceeded to load them into Garage Band. Long story short, my boss says that it is the best sounding mix he ever got. So you don’t really need all the super expensive bells and whistles, just some talent. This probably got way off base, but just my 2 cents.

http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

Out of curiosity, could one of you who have posted on here your justification for stealing please answer this question for me. How is downloading a cracked copy of software (not music as it’s a fuzzy area) any different then walking into your local music store and stealing that exact same product? I’m not trying to be an ass, I really want to know your justification. Please don’t tell me price because I’ll bet all of you have at least one cracked piece of software that would cost you less than $150 and please don’t tell me you’re trying to bring down some corporate giant. Waves (small Israeli company with a few dozen employees), McDSP (Colin their main guy and about a dozen others), URS (could probably fit in a van), Sonnox (like 7 guys in a flat in England). So let’s hear it.

http://www.lightrainends.com Neil

I refuse to use any pirated software, but I will say this: when something costs more than I could conceivably afford, it somehow psychologically ‘feels’ less wrong, because I would never buy it anyway and therefore I’m not hurting the company’s bottom line (when i was in college, I burned a lot of my friends’ CDs basically on that rationale). I don’t think that’s an excuse for theft, but it might shed some light on the motivations.

Jason Kusnier

I refuse to use pirated software because I want some to call and support me when things aren’t working…

http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

amen brother.

http://www.mydigitalpathos.com Julian

+1 to that…

http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

That’s an interesting observation. In the tangible goods market, the more expensive something is the less likely we are to steal it (think chewing gum vs a diamond necklace). In the digital world, the more expensive something is the more likely you are to steal it.

I think everyone burned a lot of cd’s in college (except Joe Gilder) but as we’ve pointed out before that’s very different. Most artists on labels don’t make their actual living on album sales, and usually piracy of music is an effective marketing strategy. I got a burned copy of the first Bright Eyes album, and I’ve bought every bright eyes album (and his solo projects) ever since. It was a gateway drug. if you steal Waves Mercury bundle, what’s left for you to buy from them? You already have it all. You’re not going to say, “Hey I like this so much I’m going to buy their next bundle legally,” because there is no next bundle. If you can’t afford it, then you can’t have it.

http://www.lightrainends.com Neil

Yeah, I don’t if anyone else frequents the ‘no-brainer’ section of AudioMIDI.com, but they have some pretty awesome deals. I think with the explosion of home recording, there are a lot of potential customers that are totally priced entirely out of the high-end plug-ins. If those same plug-ins were priced in a home studio owner’s range, the market would open up big-time. I’d bet Waves Mercury Bundle would sell 20x more copies at 1/10th the price. But as Joe pointed out, some of the ‘cache’ gets lost if they start lowering the prices.

http://www.myspace.com/dreamsilent Vinnie

I don’t have any excuse or justification, I know that I’m in the wrong for using some cracked plugins. And you know what, I could just delete Vintage Warmer from my computer and I wouldn’t miss it so badly that I’d die from loss. I have Logic, I have a really nice compressor on there as well as every plugin I could ever need already on software I paid for. In fact, this thread has made me feel so guilty I might just do that!

When I get £100, i’ll probably think about ponying up the cash and sending it to PSP audioware. But in my current financial situation, £100 is 1/4 of my rent, or 2 months eating. I had to sell a lot of really nice gear I’d been collecting for years when I got into recording. So you can see why that’s kinda been pushed back in the list of priorities.

I’m not trying to use that as an excuse, just saying how it is.

But I definitely want to buy it because, as mentioned previously, pirated software is always buggy and lacks support. Every single other piece of gear and software I use has been paid for, its just these couple of plugins weren’t.

I’m going around in circles so I’ll stop here.

Brian

In related news, Waves just won a copyright infringement lawsuit against Skyline Studios in NYC and had Quad Studios, Inc. admit liability in another case.

That’s another way to look at pirating plug-ins. If you’re not going to pay for plug-ins, you’re making someone else to pay (usually a lot more) as the result of a lawsuit.

http://mixonline.com/news/waves_intellectualproperty_copyright_1905/

Also, another bump to the mindset of getting the most out the gear you have, both analog and digital! If you can’t afford Waves, support indie plug-in makers!

http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

Great point! If waves didn’t have to spend so much money policing the world, they could spend more money, and time, on developing better (and probably cheaper) software. This article is a prime example of what I’ve been talking about. These are major studios, making their living off of creating music, and all the while they’re doing it with stolen tools.

If you’re a broke musician who just HAS to create music (like myself) but you can’t afford the most basic tools to get started, okay get a cracked copy of software. But you better damn sure give away every track you make with that software for free. Kharma’s a bitch and it will come back. Just ask the studios mentioned above.

FYI, to prove that I’m not a hypocrite, I’m going to be giving away my upcoming album completely free. Almost all of the software I use in my rig was free (legally of course), so it makes no sense for me to charge people to buy something that cost me nothing to make.

If all of the pirates that have posted on this thread would do the same, then I think we could all call it a day.

http://ubsn.net Unkle Bonehead

Wow this post really lit a fire!! Way to go Joe!
Bouben

Altough I agree that company has to have some income from their products in order to survive, I also understand those starting amateur producers, who simply have no money to start with and they would otherwise had to wait for several years to buy music-vital plugins. And I’ll bet, that most of the young electronic stars today had stolen some plugins, because free ones are not simply good enough in order to impress your label. Today, you have to sound good (especially in electro genre), and if you don’t, then too bad for your otherwise great ideas and composition. No one will take your demo seriously if it sounds bad. And notice, I am talking about somehow experimenting electro-producers, not instrument-players. But of course, if you can afford it, buy it. It is your duty anyway. My two cents.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

I see what you’re saying, but what would you say to a guitarist who wants to make it big but has no money for a nice guitar. Steal the guitar? No, you’d say, “Get an extra job or two, save up and buy one,” right? Why is it any different with software/plug-ins?

Bouben

That is quite different. You can have bad sounding demo, if you play on an instrument. Labels know, that they will have to send you to a studio. But situation in electro-genre is different. You make whole compositions just by some plugins manipulations and if you don’t have it, you can’t even compose. You can’t write notes, you can’t recall those abstract sound experiments again. And moreover, most of the electro-producers today work and often finishes their albums at home and then send it to a label. I think it is absolutely different situation. Of course it does not defend pirates in a way of law, but morally definitely.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

Yeah, but I’d still say just save up and buy ‘em, just like in any other industry. You need certain tools to get the job done. Buy ‘em.

Bouben

Allright, then you are basicly for stagnation in music. More reasonable prices would be definitely some solution. Artists themselves earn on the average only one dolar from a bought album anyway, so it rather looks like a big labels’ mouth…
Bouben

Sorry, I am again talking about CDs…sorry, my mistake. Definitely the signal to go sleep (after midnight here).

Bouben

And one more thing yet ))

I am pretty sure, that if people weren’t stealing plugins and DAWs, the progress of a music world would be much slower and less interesting. Same with CDs. People wouldn’t have such knowledge about music because they would hear, apart from radio-mainstream-****, maybe 20 CDs per year? I don’t know what’s the situation in the USA, but here in the Czech Republic and more on the east CDs are very expensive stuff. And I own many original copies, but my musical knowledge would be zero if I weren’t able to download CDs. And anyway. For example Massive Attack’s Mezzanine was first few weeks or months downloadable for free and they are definitely not a poor band It’s about quality, not piracy itself. Every original CD I own was at first on my HDD.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

“then you are basicly for stagnation in music.”

Nope. Do you think everyone should get everything they need to create their art for free? Free paint for the artists? Free computers for the computer programmers?

Those people have to pay for their tools.
Bouben

“Nope. Do you think everyone should get everything they need to create their art for free? Free paint for the artists? Free computers for the computer programmers?

Those people have to pay for their tools.”

Definitely, but I would say don’t lynch those small amateur kids experimenting in their living room while every musician earning money for his music should have 100% legal kit. Every professional should pay for his tools, but amateur experimenting producers? Of course they should too…but you know. The line is so thin…

Bouben

And one more thing. I would be never ever upset, if anyone downloaded my music. I do it for the people. I’ve read an interesting survey which claims, that most of the people buying original CDs are also the biggest pirates. Naturally. You have to listen to it first, before you buy it in this era of one-good-song-the-rest-is-filler albums.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

Right. We could go on a completely different tangent about pirating music. That’s a different animal. This thread is about pirating a product.

Bouben

Ok, sorry. I took it more generally.
Frank Adrian

Are you saying that music isn’t a product? I think the folks at ASCAP/BMI/RIAA/etc. would like a word with you…

Yes, I’m being snarky today.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

No, I’m just saying that that is not the topic of this thread. Music and software are fairly different, though.
http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

Music is a product, just like a car is a product. Clearly different standards must exist, hence this discussion. In response to Bouben, if you believe that the rapid progress of music (excluding pop, country, and rap these days), is due to the rapid spread of illegal copies of music creation software then how do you explain the rapid (more rapid in most people’s minds) progress of music in the 60′s and 70′s. We saw entire revolutions happening in various genres and it was all done without piracy of any kind (predated even dubbing cassettes). As far as expanding musical knowledge, it’s true that you couldn’t be exposed to as broad of a spectrum without downloading, but why does that require illegal downloading? You could just as easily purchase that wide variety of music, and the software needed to create yet another variety of your own. Like joe said, these are pretty different topics and while I agree that the distribution of music wouldn’t be the same without downloads (legal and illegal), I don’t think the same can be said for the creation. Innovation has been widespread since before the invention of recording. If anything, limitations on the software you can use will only foster further innovation.
Bouben

“…how do you explain the rapid (more rapid in most people’s minds) progress of music in the 60’s and 70’s.”

Well, I didn’t know that in 60′s or 70′s were some Amon Tobins, Plastikmans, Orbitals, Ovals and others…I thought that Kraftwerk was just a exception that proves the rule. 99% of music in 60′s and 70′s was produced by normal instruments – guitars, drums, vocals…But I am talking about experimental electronica and genres which are in absolutely different spheres. Moreover, you don’t need ANY plugin to make and record your music by your instrument. But you CAN’T produce at all, if you want to make electronic music and have no vital plugins. Then you can’t try it out before you buy, because 30 days demo would not tell you if it’s worth buying and your effort. Music is a slow process, I am not talking about calculated music without idea.

“but why does that require illegal downloading? You could just as easily purchase that wide variety of music, and the software needed to create yet another variety of your own.”

Well, then you have probably so much money, that it is so easy for you. I would have spent about 5000 dolars per 3 years just for albums and only maybe 20 of them would have been worth it. Moreover, most of the experimental bands wouldn’t be so popular today, if the people were not allowed to download and spread (!) their music. Nobody will buy “hare in a sack”.

http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

I wouldn’t be upset if someone downloaded my album for free either. Now imagine that no one, EVER, paid you or anyone else for creating music. It was all given away for free. Would you still be as interested in making music? You mention marketing yourself to a label, which indicates a desire for you to make money off of your music. How about you give away all of your music for free (just like you want the software companies to do), then you don’t have to impress the labels, hence you don’t have to steal the software anymore. I just solved your problem for you.

http://ubsn.net Unkle Bonehead

I agree with everybody else, stealing is stealing. But is it stealing if a friend or acquaintance purchases a product and then shares it or gives it to you? If so then I am very guilty of lots of things. Like my friend gave me a Line 6 Floor Pod. My sister also gave me her Lotus Acoustic…OH CRAP! My Dad gave me his old car!
I’m just wondering why it should be different for software (and apparently music) when it has been happening with all kinds of other products since..well…forever?
I understand the beef is with the ones who go and seek out the product with the full intention to not pay for it but how can it be differentiated from the ones that were freely given away that were previously paid for? Dont give me an answer in legalize. This is a moral question, I understand the law. It would really suck to have to do time for accepting a gift or hand-me-down.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

Here’s my response to that. If your dad gives you a car, he no longer has the car. If your buddy gives you software, he also has (and is most likely using) a…wait for it…COPY of that software.

There’s another word with “copy” in it…that’s right…COPYRIGHT. Copyright laws existed long before plug-ins did. The reason? To protect creative people from having their creative property illegally duplicated.

It would be like a choir director buying ONE copy of a piece of sheet music and making 400 photocopies for his choir. Does it happen? Yes. Is it right? No. Before long, people will simply STOP CREATING. Why create something to sell if everyone is going to steal it?

I’m not saying we need to pay creators because they worked hard and think they deserve it. Pay them because what they create is valuable. You must think it’s valuable, or you wouldn’t want a copy.

For example, if members of the Production Club and Mix With Us (my paid training courses) started “giving” all that content to everyone, I would eventually just shut down Home Studio Corner. It wouldn’t be sustainable.

As creative people, yes, there will always be people who steal your work. And that’s fine. Where it gets dangerous is when a whole culture of entitled thieves appear, demanding the best for no money. Over time, you get what you pay for.

http://www.lightrainends.com Neil

One of the areas where this gets really hazy is the whole concept of ‘second-hand’ software. A guitar, a book, an LP — you can resell all of them, perfectly legally. But have you ever seen someone sell a second-hand mp3? The whole concept of ‘ownership’ gets very blurry when you start talking about purely digital media. If I spend hundreds on a plug-in, is it legal/ethical to sell it to someone else?

http://www.lightrainends.com Neil

* (assuming that I’ve decided I don’t want to use it anymore)

http://www.mydigitalpathos.com Julian

I thinks Waves and others answer this question with their hefty license-transfer fees. Shopping used Waves resells on eBay (talking about the $500+ eBay listings here, not the “$20″ listings that we all know are cracked/illegal) reveals that $150 of the mark-up on used Waves is there to cover the license-transfer. It also allows Waves to become aware of the new Waves owner. It can be a deal, compared to buying new, but is complicated.

Frank Adrian

I understand your point, Joe, as I make my living helping to produce copyrighted works (in the non-music software field). Nevertheless, I don’t believe you are correct that people will simply, as you put it, “STOP CREATING” because they are not paid.

Will some people stop creating because they don’t get paid? Yes. But people were creating art before there was even a notion of a copyright. People today make art even though they receive no remuneration for it. Yes, it often takes another day job for them to do that. But that copyright is necessary for art to be created is demonstrably false and the idea that more art will be created because copyright is in place is not sustained by any empirical data.

In fact many people (myself included) believe that the way that copyright is implemented right now decreases the ability of new art to come into being because, due to the CTEA of 1998, old art to be used as a basis for new art does not flow into the public domain fast enough. It also causes old materials to be lost entirely. In software, this comes about as abandonware, which cannot be redistributed, updated, or fixed by a third party because it still has a legal owner which has abandoned it. In music, it’s the out of print record or CD which you’d pay for but whose copyright is owned by a company who does not want to re-release the item (for me, it’s the album “Detroit” by Mitch Ryder’s band of the same name – I owned the record, it got destroyed in a flooded basement, and now I can’t replace it).

Your point that music is valuable is true. However, the way that copyright law is implemented right now makes it hard to justify it as a way to allow artists to be paid.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

Good points. However, I bet a lot of engineers would HAVE A COW if Waves decided to stop making and supporting plug-ins. But for some reason people don’t like to correlate a company’s success with the market being willing to PAY them to keep producing quality products.

I know when it comes to music it’s much less cut and dry. But with a PRODUCT that people USE, it just makes sense that the person creating it would get paid.

http://www.lightrainends.com Neil

Amen, Joe. There are doubtlessly people who write plug-ins purely for fun, but to actually make something of high quality (sounds great, looks good, works on multiple platforms bug-free, CPU-efficient, etc) takes a tremendous amount of hard work that is not the creative ‘fun’ part. Those people definitely deserve to get paid…
Frank Adrian

I understand, because, I too, would not produce the software I make as a day job if I weren’t paid for doing that (and many of my customers would be unhappy if my company quit producing software). On the other hand, I’d just be happy if my Waves VST plug-ins didn’t seem to crash so often (and I know just how hard it is to produce software that’s used in a large number of environments that doesn’t crash), even though it’s probably the VST wrapper that my DAW uses and not the actual plugin that’s the problem.

BTW, another topic for a rant – does anyone else think that the fragmentation of the DAW industry hurts us in the long run? I sure do.

http://ubsn.net Unkle Bonehead

Dont get me wrong Joe, I am on your side of the court. But my question is still the same. Software is a product just as a car or any other product that has been traditionally handed down or passed around. Why should software be any different? A car is a created product also. Someone had to create the overall design, then the parts, etc. True you cant COPYRIGHT parts (that would be a trademark) but the design of the parts are copy written. I am simply applying the same argument of real life products to virtual products.
The culture of entitled thieves is what the problem already is. My question is what is the way to distinguish them from the average, honest person? For example I have a hypothetical friend who is interested in recording their own music. I recently upgrade to Acid Pro 7 from an old outdated Acid 4. Are we breaking the law if I give him the Acid 4 disk? Yes because he didnt pay for it. Is that wrong that him and I just broke the law? Yes. But is it wrong that I wanted to help him get into recording his stuff? Maybe it would help him create a product he can then sell and possibly make enough to buy better more expensive software?
That is my point. Where do we draw the line on the entitled thieving jerks and the honest “just want to help my friend out” people?
If you go with “there all thieves” and throw the book at everybody then you would be treading down a slippery slope with most money hungry lawyers and some money hungry corporations. Not that being money hungry is bad, they are in business to make money and I agree with that whole heartedly. But if a peice of software is not of use to you then why can you not give it away to someone?

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

There’s nothing wrong with giving someone your software, but I think that’s a small percentage of people. Just about everybody who’s commented today is referring to people who simply don’t want to pay for something.

chrisw92

just about that small point you made about music copying;

I know its not strictly on topic but… I have the same album on all my computers, my mp3 player, my mobile, my ps3 etc. even though I only have one copy of the album on CD.

is this illegal? yes, technically. is it wrong? no, I don’t think it is since I paid for the CD in the first place. its different if your copying it for friends or uploading it the the internet, household is where I draw my line.

basically If my brother wants an album I have on his mp3 player I would copy it to the device for him, because he lives in the same house as me but if my friend asks for a copy to go on his ipod I say no. since there is already a copy of the source in my house my brother could just use my CD, my friends carn’t… see what I mean.

its the same with software, I have the same version of cubase installed on my laptop and my desktop. I think this is okay because I have the original copy (also it needs the usb-lock key anyway). if I download a psp game (legally) I would put it onto my brothers psp as well… as with other software etc.

Jason Kusnier

That’s the “gray area”. This falls under fair use. If you are using the copy for yourself and only 1 copy at any given time, then it’s OK. But it’s not ok to copy it for someone else to use unless you were to not use it during the time that they had it.

http://ubsn.net Unkle Bonehead

If the music was on several tape cassettes (remember those? lol)that you own. Would it still be a gray area?

Jason Kusnier

Those aren’t exact duplicates.. But again it’s fair use. You wouldn’t use more than one of those cassettes at a time.
http://ubsn.net Unkle Bonehead

True Jason. But tapes are not digital products.
http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

Agreed, if you have the software copied to a dozen computers, but can only use it on one at a time, then you’re still really only using one copy of that software. I’m not sure why digitizing something makes it such a gray area.
Jason Kusnier

That’s true if it uses something physical like an iLok. Where you can ONLY use it 1 at a time. But some things don’t require that. So at that point it’s on the honor system, which would make it gray…
http://www.lightrainends.com Neil

I think what makes it a gray area is that, in contrast to a physical product, you can’t necessarily re-sell it. As Julian pointed out, Waves requires a $150 fee to transfer a license. On one hand, that kinda seems unfair, but on the other, if a digital product can be resold (with no wear-and-tear associated with a physical product), it competes much more competitively with a ‘new’ purchase.

David

I thought there was no way that anyone would comment that they actually use pirated plug-ins, but it looks like a few people did, which takes guts.

I’ll admit that my first intro to home recording was due to a bootleg copy of Cool Edit Pro back in the day. That qualifies as pirating, though i know i wouldn’t have explored the hobby much further if i wasn’t given that copy of CEP. I was a teenager and didn’t have the cash to spend on DAWs and other software at the time. It would have probably been a few years before i explored home recording had i not been given CEP.

These days, i have quite a few free plug-ins from sites like Audio Geek Zine, and i have a Line 6 Toneport that came w/amp sim software. That works for all of my guitar, bass, and vocal needs, so i haven’t had to look too far for other software/plug-ins.

Finally, while i agree that people should pay for the plug-ins, i see a ton of them that are ridiculously priced, which i believe contributes to a certain amount of piracy. It’s the nature of the world these days…people are gonna take stuff (such as plug-ins, software, music, videos, etc) if they think it’s too expensive. I think the software companies would sell a lot more copies if they dropped prices on some of their products. Just a thought.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

Yeah, I’m not so sure. Like I said in another comment, people ARE paying for these plug-ins. At the current prices, they are perceived as valuable. If they slashed their prices to a ridiculously low level, I bet you’d see a drop in both sales AND piracy, because the market would perceive them as cheap.

I’m no economist, though…but I play one on television.
http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

Agreed, it takes guts to openly admit to stealing. I wonder if as many people would openly admit to stealing something physical? I’m not sure how people who are involved in an industry of intellectual property can see such a disconnect between physical and electronic goods. Taking something without paying for it (regardless of how you justify it) is stealing. Back to Joe’s example, if you think something is too expensive, then don’t use it.

David, you mentioned Cool Edit Pro. Where is Syntrillium (the developer of that software) these days? Cool Edit was great software, and revolutionary in its day, and that company is now gone! I personally know of about a dozen people who had cracked copies of that software. Massive piracy, company gone. 1+1 really does equal 2!

Can’t stress this enough, if you think it’s too expensive DON’T USE IT! There are so many pieces of freeware out there anymore you have no excuse for stealing. High prices aren’t justification for theft. If you think that they are, please email me your address. I need a new refrigerator, car, TV, and couch and they’re all WAY too expensive. I’m coming for yours!

David

Syntrillium isn’t around, but i wouldn’t attribute that to piracy. Companies go under all the time due to any number of issues. Reaper is one of the most pirated DAWs out there, yet the company that makes it is doing incredibly well.

r0cb0y

i forgot to say thanks joe..
r0cb0y

here’s a scenario..

what if for example..i used a bunch of stolen software on an album that sold 10,000,000 copies.. now that i’ve made a lot of money i decided to buy a legitimate copy of all those stolen software i used and i announced to the whole world that i used those software so that musician and home studio owners would buy them..? would that be fair to the software developers..? should the software developers acknowledge those people who uploaded their software on torrent sites? because if it wasn’t for them i wouldn’t have used the softwares because they are too darn expensive..

by the way Joe..
I’m from the Philippines.. and i just want you to know that you are doing a very wonderful job teaching beginners like me about recording.. keep up the good work Joe.. oh.. and by the way.. i applied for a job in a studio here in the philippines that specializes in advertising.. and everything i said in my interview.. i learned it from here.. i think i’m starting in June.. as an assistant engineer.. it’s all because of your site.. just thought you should know.. more power to hsc!!

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

Awesome! Congratulations on the job. That’s great.

As far as your scenario goes. I doubt it’s the plug-ins that are responsible for 10,000,000 album sales.

http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

The only people who should be allowed to pirate plug-ins are the ones who will never EVER try to make money with their music. I see so many engineers using $10k worth of stolen plug-ins and then they turn around and complain that piracy is making it too hard for them to make a living in the industry. As Joe pointed out, there are a ton of great free plug-ins out there. If you’re broke, use those. If you want the good stuff, then you need to pay them for their time and labor in order to make the good stuff. Also, what Joe pointed out is really true. I don’t know of a single plug-in manufacturer (except Avid) that is a HUGE corporation. Most of them (Waves, McDSP, Sonnox, URS, etc) are super small companies with a couple dozen employees in small offices. We’re not talking Universal Studios, or Pepsi here. These aren’t the corporations that you should be attacking, these are the ones you should be supporting.

Jason Kusnier

You have a good point. It would be better to compare it to a gaming engine used to make the game. And those can go for upwards of 100′s of thousands of dollars.

http://www.lightrainends.com Neil

I agree with most of the points made, but I wanted to echo that hypocrisy of someone trying to sell music they made with pirated software. That’s just sad.
Ben O’Brien Smith

I’m all about paying for my gear. I wouldn’t go steal a channel strip and I’m not going to illegally download plugins. My philosophy is as follows:

If they’re worth using on your projects, it’s worth you paying to use them. You’ll appreciate them more as a result of investing in them.

It also seems to me that a large percentage of the people I know who snatch plugins off of torrent sites and the like have little to no idea what they’re doing with the plugin not to mention audio production in general. Just an observation.
http://downatthemoment Stian Sylta

WHen I teach music recording technology to students, piracy is one of the main reaasons for showing them Pro Tools and telling them that this is the industry standard.
When they ask me where they can download it I always smile. You can probably get it where you get everything else pirated, but this software actually demands you have their own interface for it to even start. So there`s no point in pirating it unless you already bought it.

So now several of my students have bought them selves small PT starter packs. (The m-audio ones), I`m showing them alot of stuff, and they are learning that doing something worthwile with computers takes both time, effort and cash.

Besides, with all the super Group buys being offered the last year, the only thing I want now is a more stable PT and maybe a special on the Instrument Expansion Pack from AIR.
http://www.myspace.com/dreamsilent Vinnie

I will admit this. I have some pirated plugins on my computer. My mate hooked me up with a bunch of PSP and Sonalksis plugins, and being really poor and eager to try them out, I jumped at the chance.

I only seem to use a couple out of the bunch, namely Vintage Warmer, but I know that’s beside the point. I support paying for plugins, since they’re pretty much always better than the free plugins (except for the free Massey Tapehead AU plugin. I literally can’t live without it.)

I guess I sometimes balk at investing in a plugin that costs a lot, but a lot of them have great demos to help you assess whether they’re worth it or not. I think if I get into a much more comfortable financial situation I will eventually fess up and give PSP audioware their money for Vintage Warmer (it really is an amazing plugin!) but alas, like most of us, making ends mete gets in the way of spending in the right places in our endless-money-drains/home studios.

I’m aware that my comment is useless since I’m a flaming hypocrite. But I doubt that everyone, if offered some free plugins that are really cool, would simply turn it down on principal alone. You’d at least want to *try* it, right?

In any case, torrenting AU plugins is nigh-on impossible, so that temptation is gone for me!
http://www.scottcolesby.com Scott Colesby

Personally, if I want a plug-in and don’t have the money for something big and expensive, I’m not going to steal it. I’ll go out and find a comparable freeware or shareware program. Best example is that instead of using something like guitar rig or pod farm (which i use only because it was free for my pod x3 live) i would go out and get Studio Devil Plug-in which has a free amp. Sure, you don’t get the whole plug-in, but its free and not stolen.
http://songdemotips.wordpress.com Toby Baxley

As usual, Joe has opened a can of worms. This is good stuff to hash out.

BTW – this is the 20th comment. Now show us the new home studio, Joe!
http://www.myspace.com/icedonvi IceDon

Hi everyone,am not a big poster but i do read alot & i had to comment on this only because i have free & plug-ins from torrent.anyway if the plug-ins was a reasonable price then i would pay for it but if its 10,000 & i can get it for free….then why not? i dont have 10,000 but if i have a way to get the 10,000 program for cheaper or free then why not get it for cheaper or for free? if xbox 360 make games that cost $150 would you buy those games for $150 if you can get them cheaper or for free? the same thing goes for game developers “Tyler Smith” Developing good software costs resources (money, time, etc) and is a valued commodity. If it weren’t, people wouldn’t steal it in the first place. i bet you own an xbox360 & i know that you would not buy all your games for $150 or even 1 so thats why they made the prices some what reasonable $60-$65 a game.if waves make a bundle for $1000 or even $3000 max for the bundle i would consider buying it but 10,000 C’mon thats a down payment for a house.all am saying is if the price is reasonable i will pay for it but if its crazy over price hard work or no hard work i would not pay for over price stuff at all…every software out here is hard work,time,money, etc…but they are not all over priced!!

@chrisw92 the waves diamond bundle is no more than 800mb & its 10,000 bruh!!

@Joe Just because people need food to survive doesn’t mean grocery stores are evil for charging people for their products.
No they are not evil “BUT” if they do charge $30 for a 6pack of burgers then what u call thaat?

When it comes to music pirated then i feel like that should not be only because the cd’s are $16.99 & no more than $20 bucks.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

Thanks for the comment, IceDon.

@Joe Just because people need food to survive doesn’t mean grocery stores are evil for charging people for their products.
No they are not evil “BUT” if they do charge $30 for a 6pack of burgers then what u call thaat?

My response to this would be don’t buy the $30 pack of burgers. Buy the cheaper version. Go to a different store. Hit up the McDonald’s Dollar Menu. I can go down to Kroger and buy a cheap steak from the deli for $5. I’d rather have filet mignon than this cheap crap, but that costs more money. I don’t demand that the filet mingnon be the same price as the cheap stuff.

If you don’t like the $10,000 price tag, then use other plug-ins. Nobody’s twisting your arm to use Waves. I think Toyota Land Cruisers are cool, but they start at $65,000. So…do I go steal one? Even if I’d never get caught? Nope. I stick with the Corolla. And I get from A to B just fine.

It’s an inconsistent logic. If X is too expensive, then the only option is to steal it? No, there’s also Y, Z, W…and I heard Q is pretty good, too.

Thanks for the comment, though, IceDon. I definitely see what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. It does seem wild that Waves would charge $10,000 for a plug-in bundle, but

1. I would never use/need all those plug-ins.
2. There are plenty of people paying for them. If people were buying your $10,000 product would you keep selling it? Yup. The market will dictate what’s fair, and as long as people are buying it, then it must not be this huge conspiracy after all.
http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

Comparing a Waves bundle to an Xbox game is a bit of a stretch. Volume volume volume. The latest Call of Duty has already sold many many millions of copies. Waves will never sell millions of copies of Mercury. Not even if they sell the same bundle for the next 25 years. They’ll be lucky if they can move 500 of them this year. Also (see my post) you’re not going to try to create something new with an Xbox game and then sell that creation. Waves plugs are tools used to create products for you to sell. They’re not the end of the line, they’re the beginning. It’s like stealing a hammer to build a bird house and then making others pay for the bird house.
chrisw92

still… you get my point. (I was guessing since every time I load up one patch, for example a piano, on my virtual instruments it loads up about 300-400mb)

and I do agree with you that 10,000 (dollars?) is way overpriced but then again I would never need them plugins… I don’t record in a high end studio I record in my bedroom, heck I don’t even have any monitors yet. what benefit would “super” professional plugins give me? non, I wouldn’t be able to tell the quality of a £100 compressor to a £10,000 compressor on my system. so how is anyone else listening to one of my mixes?

http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

So true man! I’ve found that most people who steal the $10,000 bundle don’t use 60% of it, and could have done just as good of work with a $300 beginner’s bundle. Also, most major DAW’s (logic, cubase, sonar) have great plugs included anymore, so if you can’t stand to pay waves prices, use the stock plugs. That’s why they’re there.

Doug

I do not use pirated plugins. But, I did get hooked on free plugins. Which, I’ve since kicked the addiction.

Here’s a story from my past which is somewhat related to the topic at hand. Many moons ago at an ISP, I was into the pirated stuff (everything). I quit doing it after realizing I was doing nothing else but downloading pirated stuff. I cleaned my act up, so to speak. Others at work were still doing it. Then one morning a few months later, the FBI shows up with warrants. Looking for a server and the person it belonged to. It was tasked to me to track down the server on our system which I did, and my tracking also gave the name of the person. The FBI personnel were nice. We talked about servers and computer stuff in general. But, I was a nervous wreck.

I remember the FBI. I remember doing nothing but downloading pirated stuff. So, I stay away.

I do think that some plug-ins are over-priced. I also agree with some – why buy a fancy plugin, if you do not know how to use what you already have.
http://www.mydigitalpathos.com Julian

This is the seedy side of home-studio ownership, and a massively-passionate topic in the Home Studio community. If you doubt that, look how fast these comments screamed into this post after it went live!

We can tell the truth, “stealing is stealing”, to the thieves all day long. It doesn’t change the sad likelihood that piracy will never go away and has been with us since the first DOS disk was copied in 1981. For every well-developed product out there north of $500 in price, there are hackers who want to defeat its copy protection. It’s Robin Hood incarnate, but it’s wrong. Piracy _shouldn’t_ happen — but rainbows/unicorns aside: I’ve tried to understand what makes people steal software. Parable for you:
There’s a jackass with no talent who has GAS for every torrented VI/plug-in out there. He doesn’t believe in paying for anything ever. Then there’s the guy who is stuck on the “last miile” of a yearlong project and is told 30 seconds in a certain plug will fix his issue…the eval version has white-noise or doesn’t fully work…guy has no cash and discovers the torrents. That same guy should’ve taken his tracks to an engineer who licensed the plug, but doesn’t. There’s strictly NO difference between that guy and the jackass-pirate with GAS, stealing is stealing and we hate on both pretty equally. Still, I think people should always look at this issue from all sides.

I’m not trying to employ moral relativism here, piracy is dead wrong…yet we all know this happens in large numbers in the home studio community. I sometimes wonder how many decent indie albums out there had their tracks affected (or is it “effected”?!) by pirated plug-ins?

Creating good software of any kind costs money, and those costs only go higher when piracy gets involved. Still many start out with pirated apps, I’ve been working in IT since the mid 90s and many dorks my age cut their teeth programming with pirated Borland disks. I didn’t, but in my humble beginnings my first home-built 12mhz XT PC (NEC v20 CPU, I couldn’t afford Intel) was booted it with a copy of DOS “a friend gave me”. I got my school word done, and I atoned by becoming a 30-something yuppie who Sweetwater & Guitar Cetner just friggin’ loves. I don’t condone my poverished 15-year old self stealing DOS — but I wonder how many people got into their early home studios running “software a friend gave them”? We will never know this, of course, but I still wonder…

Again, I’m NOT condoning piracy in ANY form, but I am saying there are people who feel their economic means, desire to learn, etc were justification for their piracy. It isn’t. But those folks aren’t going away. Piracy will always be with any capitalistic society. There will always be hackers who think they are Robin Hood helping the “have nots” in a world of “haves” when it comes to expensive software in ANY industry (audio included)…and it will always piss off the people who saved and worked hard to buy those apps. Corporations have become very adept at stemming their losses with good copy protection — we can be thankful for that at least.

Bottom line: if you find an app, tool, or plug-in you like, eval it (if they offer evals) then BUY and license it! If you steal it, you should buy it at the next opportunity…or delete it. And don’t tell ME about it. I’ll only point you to this epic thread that’s developing.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

Come to think of it, my first DAW software was a version of Cakewalk a friend let me “borrow.”

“Calling Agent Kettle, this is Agent Pot.”

At the time, though, I didn’t even know what copyright was. I’ve more than made up for it with all the stuff I have bought since I first got into recording.

Mike

I’m both a software engineer and an amateur musician, but my feeling is more lenient than some others here. If I don’t know anything about a particular musician or piece of software, there is little chance that I’m going to fork over money for the “privilege” of listening/trying it. I don’t have money to spend on those types of things. Music is probably easier in terms of making a decision, but software tends to take some serious effort to integrate into a workflow…usually much longer than a demo will allow. What’s with stripped down demos too, how can I make an evaluation if I can’t try out the stuff I’m interested in trying. In those cases, I’m willing to turn a blind eye, because it is partially marketing.

However, once you have decided you like the music/software, I am absolutely in favor of paying for it. It was mentioned in an earlier comment about an artist who said “support me or I’ll go away”, this is the case whether they officially state that or not. You absolutely have to support the artist/developer or they will go away. I would emphasize that even for those creators who are giving it away free, there are still ways to support them.

http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

Good point about the demo’s, Mike. I think Waves’ demo period is only 7 days now. That’s great if you’re in the studio every day for a week, but most people need several weekends to put it through its paces.

I think the software manufacturers could stand to be more generous with their demos. It could only help sales.

For example, I use Transmit from Panic as my FTP client. They give you something like 30 days to use the software, it may even be a full version. If it is limited, it’s nothing I noticed. I got to put it through its paces, then decide if I wanted to buy it…and I did.

ViscoelasticMan

(Disclaimer: I haven’t had any sleep since yesterday’s morning)

While one thing is for sure: Stealing is 100% wrong (unless you’re stealing food or medicines in a critical situation, but this is no such case), I do have to sympathize with the pirates in one aspect: Most “pro” plugins are terribly overpriced. Speaking as a developer I can tell you most of the developing time actually goes towards graphic design, making it look impressive so it can sell at impressive prices.

Of course, then there are the ones with fair prices, but no one wants them because “they’re not the industry standard”.

Now, let’s not confuse situations, all my friends use cracked software and I know they’d still use it even if they were rich and could more-than-afford-them. Software, being intangible, just doesn’t feel like it’s worth paying tangible bucks for, even if it actually is. But pro software is still overpriced.

I personally use *exclusively* FOSS (free open source software). If something’s missing, I put it there myself. If something’s broken, I fix it myself. Not everyone has this much free time, of course.
http://songdemotips.wordpress.com Toby Baxley

Pay. A good plug-in is worth the money. I’m just starting to dive in to the free plug-ins on the web. If I find one that I like and they have an option to donate, I’ll try to show them some love.
chrisw92

I’m with Joel on this one, if there is anything free going I jump on it straight away. but If it has a price tag you should buy it, the main two reasons (according to me) are that; one, the developers need to stay in business to give us (the consumer) more and better products. they cannot make a new plugin every week/month so because they can only make quality plugins every… say one or two years they need to cover the cost of the development (which is why the product seems so damn expensive).

two, I find it pointless to pirate plugins… especially virtual instruments, there gigabytes worth. even somebody like me with the best and fastest connection possible in my area and with unlimited downloads It would take me weeks to download these plugins, not to mention because of the stupid “fair use policy” the ISP would slow my downloads down to a crawl if I was downloading gigabytes. its a lot easier to just spend the money and get it straight away.

once again… free things are great if they are supposed to be free
http://www.bmius.org Mark Hewitt

Stealing is stealing… One can justify anything in his/her mind. So the bottom line is if it costs money then buy it or don’t use it… Don’t have much to comment on this one…
http://www.myspace.com/diego.pozo Diego Pozo

hi joe, thanks for this post, this is a relevant topic for everyone that hangs out in here.

everybody is entitled to run their own “moral/ethical interface”, so it’s up to them if they want to steal plug-ins. just be discreet about it. it’s not the kind of stuff you should brag about to whoever walks into your studio…

you can download stolen, fancy major-league plug-ins from torrents all day long, but one of the challenges as a recording aficionado is to “make do” with the equipment you’ve already got.

i think that the need for plug-ins, pirated or not, is an offshoot of G. A. S. (gear acquisition syndrome). same concept, different realm. you spend more time downloading and tweaking than actually learning how to use your existing gear so you don’t need a plug-in to fix your tracks.

limitations are actually good for your creativity, and i’m not just talking about songwriting. when you can make a 5-dollar mic sound great, you’ll make a 100-dollar mic sound awesome, and so on and so forth.

currently, i don’t have a vocal mic, but i have this little micro-cassette recorder, so yesterday i recorded a scratch vocal take of this song i’m working on. i flew that tape into my DAW, cleaned it up HSC-style , and now i have a rough draft.

if i had waited to record until i got my mic, or until i had the right plug-in, i’d be way behind in pre-production.
http://www.tylersmithmusic.com Tyler Smith

I agree with Ron. People that steal plug ins are thieves. I think that to hold the opposite perspective takes a certain lack of common sense. Developing good software costs resources (money, time, etc) and is a valued commodity. If it weren’t, people wouldn’t steal it in the first place.

If you are using the software and there is no free version available, legally, for your use, it is in your best interest to pay the provider for their hard work – the work which you appreciate (whether verbally or non) as shown through your continued use.

My $.02.
http://www.warmgunrecords.com Chad

I generally try to use plug-ins as little as possible. I try to get the sound right the way I want it to in tracking. If I can do that, I find I don’t really need the super expensive ones, or the free and cheap ones do what I need them to.

Also, I hate spending money on plug-ins. I’d rather buy great gear and get real sound. If you buy your gear right, you don’t have to worry nearly as much about losing money on resale. You may even be able to make some. Not so with plug-ins. Your money is pretty much gone when you buy them (not always I admit).

Best free plug-in i’ve ever downloaded?

http://www.elysia.com/software/niveau-filter/

This thing rules

http://www.warmgunrecords.com Chad

Oh yeah… don’t steal. It’s wrong. There’s no justification.
http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

::standing ovation::

Great point, Chad. If you do your job on the recording side of things and use quality gear there, you’re much less likely to need fancy shmancy plug-ins.

Alright, folks. So far this discussion is one-sided. Don’t be afraid to speak up if you disagree. That’s the fun part!
chrisw92

wow, your right about that free plugin. its brilliant.
Preshan

Man, that Elysia plug-in sounds great! Thanks for the link Chad

The demos at masseyplugins.com never expire and they sound amazing… they just don’t recall settings after you close and open a session, and you can’t bypass them or use them on stereo tracks. But still definitely better than plug-ins that expire

There’s actually a lot of sweet plug-ins out there that are genuinely FREE, you just have to go looking a bit. But yeah, don’t crack or steal

http://www.intuneaudio.ca Charlie

Always pay.

I’d like to ask anyone who feels they don’t have to pay how they’d react to a client not paying them after recording and album for them?
Or if their boss came to them and said “I saw your nice new car our there, I’m not going to pay you this week you’ve already got enough money”.

You can try and rationalize but it’s exactly the same. They made a product. You want to use is, you pay for it.
http://is4ac.tumblr.com Isaac

I agree with you that any sort of pirating is stealing, hands down.

No matter if you think it’s worth it or not, these companies and people working for them make their living off this stuff, and if everyone stole it, they wouldn’t make a living, and no more plug-ins for us! Simple as that.

Would you steal music from your favorite artist, if you knew they’d never make music again?
http://www.homestudiocorner.com Joe Gilder

I had another thought, too. Just because software developers COULD make their plug-ins free (and some do) doesn’t mean that all plug-ins should be free.

Just because people need food to survive doesn’t mean grocery stores are evil for charging people for their products.
Ron Daniel

People who steal plug-ins are thieves, plain and simple.

http://fathomlessregression.wordpress.com Fathomless Regression

speak on it my brother! I don’t see why people view stealing digital goods any different than tangible goods.

Jason Kusnier

Being a software engineer and a musician myself. If you like it and have used it to add value to whatever you’re doing, then you should pay for it. If everyone steals it, then what is the incentive for the developers to continue making it better or even support the bugs?

I have to agree with Joel as well. If they give you a demo, then use it. But don’t take advantage of it and reinstall it every time it expires.
http://www.thesinaialliance.com Joel

Pay for ‘em. Don’t be a jerk.

I WILL however, use demo plug-ins with no intent to purchase – if the company is giving stuff away of their own free will, I see no reason to spend money unless I love it (which, incidentally, I did with Izotope Trash – I bought it based on loving the demo product so much).

Tom

+1.